In terms of good fit awareness and availability of D+bras, it’s probably fair to say that the US is at least 10 years behind the UK high street – possibly more. It’s shocking, but not hard to believe: I was in New York last weekend and witnessed a lot of Very Bad Things being done to boobs. Cruel quadraboobs. Painfully inept sports bras. Shoulders sliced by straining spindly straps. And not a D+ bra in sight.
My one weekend in New York is backed up by the very many e-mails, tweets and Facebook messages I get from US girls asking for help finding a good fitter. Nordstrom, one of the only mainstream retailers to carry DD+ lingerie, is reportedly hit and miss on the fit front – leaving swathes of women either trial-and-erroring their way to a decent fit via mail order, or simply in the dark that lingerie can – and should be – more comfortable than they know. (US fit specialists – let me know where you are so I can pass on your details – your country needs you!)
I digress. Whilst in New York, presiding over this (very awesome) city of squished boobs, was Victoria’s Secret. Everywhere. Huge billboards. Enormous shops. Hundreds of women clutching the pink glossy bags stuffed with VS lingerie and tissue.
Man, I hate Victoria’s Secret.
I hate that such a huge and influential lingerie company was founded to make lingerie shopping easier for men, with a system that works on estimation (for men), and the ridiculous overbust measuring technique (which is basically the plus-four method, but weirder).
And I hate the bland, boring, homogenous version of ‘sexy’ they uphold. Very Sexy – in VS land – is ‘pushed up, often to the point of strangulation’, with a good dose of fake tan and airbrushing thrown in for good measure. The sultry, straight-from-Playboy pouts are about as convincing as a Playtex bra makeover video, and there’s something oddly inanimate and dead-eyed about the women after they’ve been posed, styled and assembled in to a VS poster. Mr B4J says ‘they literally take the titillation out of tits’ – and he’s right. Lingerie should be well fitting and supportive, but it is also playful, fun, and sexy. Victoria’s Secret is not.
But mostly, I hate that nothing about the bad fit advice, the awful fit on show, the irresponsible airbrushing, and their boring Nuts Magazine-style artwork is done to support, empower, or celebrate the women the business relies on for its $5bn revenue. It’s exploitative, it’s irresponsible, it’s a relic… and it’s businesses like this that keep American women in the wrong sized bras for life.
Women deserve more than Victoria’s Secret. It’s time to start demanding it.
And this is not even mentioning how rude their fitters can be to D+ women…
I can well imagine. With the irony being that most of their models ARE D+, and that all they do is try to make women look as huge as possible…
They try to make the women look bustier yet they are already bigger than they think they are! Why try so hard to be something you already are?
Most of there models are not D+, most are A and B cups, they use push up bras, or put chicken fillets in there bras to push them up and make them look bigger for photoshoots.
Wow that is scathing. Yes I have always wanted a Victorias Secret bra but as A 30G will never get one. Why a company that big doesn’t accommodate larger cup sizes I dont’t know but I guess from what you say above it may be their ineptness that is stopping them. It’s time they woke up! I too am tired of the air brushing and fakeness when and where will it end.
Hey I don’t hate them, I love them! They keep sending business my way. While refitting women, I have literally seen VS bras break on D+ cups and bands over 36 who are squished into wearing some other smaller size. There are plenty of places to get a good fitting for larger busts (including larger bands) here. I carry up to H cup. Also, it makes me angry how they market to teenagers. The ads geared to young girls with huge padded bras that make them look 2 cup sizes bigger. They do not need anymore pressure to have big boobs and small waists
I love this comment! Where are you based Kimberly?
Oh, you should have seen my VS bras from when I used to grab their biggest bra (38DD)! When I went to a proper fitting (and was told I was a 32GG) the fitter literally laughed at my VS bra: Straps had snapped (in the plastic part on the straps), and I had stubbornly “fixed it” with a key-chain! And friction had caused the wire-channels to be worn out, so it had ugly stitches from where I had tried to keep the wire in.
Oh my god! How long did you put up with that? I am astounded by what we women just get used to. We are clearly built for endurance! x
I actually love Victoria’s Secret. Weird, I know. I do find it odd that they know so little about bra fitting. But even though their bras don’t come in a good range of sizes, they are still much better constructed than bras from brands with good size ranges–they have embedded underwires, soft laser-cut bands that will never cut in and leave marks, and lots of colors and styles. If they came in proper sizes these bras would be perfect (as opposed to the bras that do come in a proper range of sizes, which are generally uncomfortable and cause lines that show under clothes). Their underwear is also the best you will ever find, anywhere, in terms of comfort, lasting power, and not showing under clothes. I still buy their panties and I always will because I haven’t found any other company that knows how to make them like that. Their clothing is also good for curves and they make really nice sweaters and coats. And true, their models are quite skinny these days but they are much curvier than high fashion models, and no worse than the models used by Freya, Panache, etc. I know Victoria’s Secret gets a bad rap for promoting bad fit, which is deserved, but frankly no big US company is going to do a better job. Victoria’s Secret really has a lot to offer as a brand, it’s just that bras aren’t one of those things for the majority of women.
I love that the angriest blog in lingerie land disagrees with my one and only I hate post! 😛
I take your point, but to clarify I’ve got no beef with their pants/other products (I still wear M&S pants – no one can rock a budget french short like them – although I don’t think their bras are up to all that much these days.) Victoria’s Secret lingerie should be decent quality (they’re not exactly budget), but if you put the wrong size in them (see comment from Kim) they will do all the things you say they won’t and worse. What I hate about Victoria’s Secret is that they promote a fit that will inevitably lead to that. To quote the Panache MD – “you can spend all the time and money in the world making a high quality bra, but if women don’t wear it in the right size you might as well not have bothered…”
Would I hate VS quite so much if they fixed their fit and opened up their sizing? Of course not! I could probably forgive – no, tolerate – the objectification of their blank-eyed models (it’s that that bugs me more than the skinniness, ftr) if they were promoting a responsible fit. It would change the world, lingerie wise. But that’s not going to happen, for so many reasons. The sad thing is that all we can do is what we have been doing: raise awareness and change perception one woman at a time… x
Yes, you are right! And actually, I suppose it is true that Victoria’s Secret, being so massive and ubiquitous in the States, really has a responsibility that they are avoiding, plus they are spreading false information (startled me a bit the time I went in to get fitted at age 16 and they measured my band not only above my boobs, but also over my sweater. Even then I knew that the 36C was wrong and a 34DD would be better). But then I have mixed feelings, and feel like it is such a shame, because they are really good at other things involving bras (like those nice soft bands and technical/memory foam/uberconvertible gimmicky stuff) so it baffles me how they don’t understand sizing. Of course, I happen to be on the end of the size range anyway, so for the most part brands like Freya and celebrity brands that go up to G are just as impossible to wear as VS. But for many more women that’s not the case, and people will never know that as long as companies like VS ARE so common.
I agree it’s odd and hilarious that I hate on companies so much yet I keep running back to VS! It’s sort of a vice. I still long to be able to wear their holiday-themed/sequined/snowflake print bras. They’re ‘the one that got away.’ I keep meaning to do a post explaining it but when I do I will make sure to link back to your post which is rather more sound in judgment!
Haha, can’t wait to read it! My OTGA really is Agent Provocateur. I mean, it’s absurd to seriously contemplate spending £130 on a bra that can’t be worn outside of the bedroom (I tried once, the lace failed 😦 – at least I hadn’t paid for it…) but still I find myself drooling over their site every time an e-mail comes through. What is wrong with me?!
VS is one of the worst bra companies in the world. Their fit method is basically can you strap this bra around your body. Once I was fitted into a 38DD when I was a 32G. Not pretty and the fitter was like this looks so good. I was spilling out everywhere.
The whole measurement system is a joke. It’s designed to get girls into the store so it doesn’t matter if it’s done right. Also there so many insecure young women out there that don’t want to take their shirts off in front of another woman and think that being measured over their clothes is a good thing. VS has become a lot of young women’s first store and so many of them go for push up bras. Tell me why does anyone under the age of 16 need a push up bra?
It also sad how the VS model is the new Barbie. Many girls and teens have a goal to become a VS model and I see the question pretty much everyday on Yahoo! Answers. It’s really sad.
I’m sure that most of the women trained to fit bras at VS given a 10 min video that goes in one ear and out the other. It says well this how you fit a woman but honest just tell her what she wants to hear because you are on commission.
VS is the worst but it’s not the only store like this. La Senza UK does go up to a FF or G. But La Senza US, Can, Aus, and NZ offer up to a DD. Why is that? La Senza could have made so much more money if they even tried to offer their UK sizing in the US. I have literally walked in a La Senza US ask their sizing and been laughed out of their store.
Other stores like Norstroms, Intamacy, and small boutiques don’t try to show what the right fit should look like. At best they get them in booth put a bra on them and it might fit well it might not, but the customer is willing to believe the fitter because she is a “professional”. Come one people you don’t need a degree to fit bras, and just because this woman fits bras all day everyday doesn’t mean she knows that she is doing. The only store that I would ever trust is one that shows how to fit yourself on a little monitor that you can watch before your fitting.
Wow, to wake up to this post was like Christmas morning. There was so much “YESSSSS!!!” in my brain. It is horrifying and sad that Victoria’s Secret exists the way it does and whenever I see headlines about companies that are struggling in the recession (like Friendly’s or K-Mart), I always hope that it’s VS. I know that some of their products are wonderful, including their bras, but their company makes me so angry. Their fitting methods are archaic, their size range is laughably limited, and their marketing strategy runs along the lines of “zombie sex toy”.
I’ve been fit multiple times in the past at VS and their reaction to my 30Gs was “maybe you could get a 32DD altered by a seamstress”. I don’t blame the women who work there and I’ve never been treated unkindly by their sales associates. However, it should be company policy for their fitters to inform DD+ women that there are bras that will fit them and they simply don’t manufacture them. The first time I was fit outside of Victoria’s Secret, I said, “Oh, I didn’t know that they made bras to a G-cup!”. It’s still something I hear from women all the time!
On a more optimistic note, I think there’s going to be a big change. Even in the last 5 years, there’s been such a shift. Panache has been popping up in Instyle magazine and Wacoal is making more and more extended cup sizes in cute, youthful designs. Although they don’t carry all the sizes, Nordstrom’s regularly stocks Elomi and Freya. The U.S. will catch up and then, the bra criminals at Victoria’s will be running scared.
Exactly the same thing started happening a few years ago in the UK – things reached a tipping point and suddenly DD+ brands and sizes were in most stores and press – including supermarkets. There’s still a knowledge gap about fit but things are improving slowly. The Daily Mail which – love it or hate it – is the most read online paper in the UK posted a pretty good article on fit last week (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2111317/A-step-approach-works-best-bra-fits.html) and there are more and more rumblings… Here’s hoping the message spreads US way fast – because you’re right: the more women who understand and demand good fit, the more Victoria’s Secret are going to have to take a long hard look at themselves.
P.S Love the (phrase – not the fact) ‘zombie sex toy’. I now live in Amsterdam and Victoria’s Secret posters remind me of the red light district – people standing around something that is supposed to be sexy and exciting, but in reality it actually makes them feel detached and cold while the women look stiff and bored. Does anyone seriously find it ‘sexy’?
I couldn’t agree more with this post. VS is a blight on the lingerie scene – and the US lingerie market is bizarre and skewed. How one can barely find a D+ bra with a 32 or smaller back size is shocking to me. The population there is huge. Why isn’t everyone rebelling?
When I was younger, I had a very poor fitting experience at VS. They too told me I was a 38DD, and when I said that the bra didn’t look right and wasn’t comfortable, the woman scoffed and said: Well, that’s the way it’s supposed to fit. “If you don’t like it, maybe you should go to Lane Bryant.” I felt horrible about myself and my boobs because of that, and it was ultimately the precipitating event that led to my store (getting properly fitted was the other half of that coin). I never wanted another woman to have to feel that way. We see a lot of VS refugees who were improperly fitted and who feel so much better in what we have to offer because in the words of one customers, they don’t feel like “mutants” anymore. Women beat themselves up so much that I think getting them in the right bra can really pave the way for a better body image.
Regarding the models, what I find the most hilarious is that they have admitted that in addition to the push-up bras, the models wear two to three pairs of chicken cutlets to increase their bust size. Catch a candid shot of a VS angel on the beach with her family, and the cleavage has mysteriously disappeared. Why not just use curvy models to begin with and save yourself the trouble?
For your upcoming blog, we’re in Burlington, NC.
You should have gone toLane Bryant. I was told something similar by the rude fitter in my local VS when she measured me to be a 40H, so I took her sarcastic advice and went to Lane Bryant. After a much nicer, more respectful fitter measured me, she told me I was a 42DD, then brought me several different types and styles of bras at varying prices and told me which ones were good for what things and why ones would go best with what kinds of shirts and so on. I spent $200 on bras that day, and left with fantastic looking breasts, great posture, and a grin on my face. I even stopped by the VS store on my way back and personally thanked the sales girls and the manager for wonderful advice. Sure, they lost out on a $200, but I got some well fitted, comfy, supportive bras. And seven years later I’m still shopping for bras there, and I have yet to have a bad experience.
Hear hear! It’s almost oppressive how prevalent VS is here in the U.S… I have friends that will shop at no place else, who take their fitting advice as absolute law. VS fitted me as a completely ridiculous 34C once, and, as I told this incredulously to friends, some of them actually seemed to think that “Well, if they say you are, maybe you are.” I don’t mind that they’re a bra store with very limited sizes. What I do mind is that they’re so prevalent and influential and they give such bad bra/fitting advice, and they apparently are told to purposefully fit women wrong just to make a sale, and their bras aren’t even great quality, and they don’t fit their models correctly, and their models are so think they should be wearing 28-24 bands whereas VS barely makes any 30 bands.
Nordstrom, too, is limited in its size options… Sarah from stackDD and I have been emailing them recently about their sizing choices and their lack of 28 bands/scarcity of 30 bands… I can let you know how that all goes!
Thanks for the great post. 🙂
I’m a customer, not an owner but there is a lingerie shop in Melbourne, FL that sells a full range of sizes. http://www.laboutiquedelingerie.com/
Although, I wish they would hire a professional to come in and redesign the store (and website) visually so they could attract more customers away from VS. They should also get involved all the lingerie blogs and their facebook pages to attract customers looking for a good fitting bra, like the way A Sophisticated Pair does.
I could not agree more. I despise Victoria Secret AND La Senza (VS purchased La Senza a few years ago) and all they do is make ill fitting bras. I live in Vancouver, BC and there’s one upscale lingerie boutique that does proper fittings and carries a wide range of sizes (including my beloved Freya). The store is called Diane’s Lingerie – so if anyone is in the city they should head there and pick up a bra or four!
I just found my all sizes boutique in Red Bank, New Jersey. It’s amazing to have access to Goreous bras that actually fit, are made of good materials, and from a shoppe that promotes a healthy, fun, sexy version of the female body. Sweetest Sin is willing to bend over backward to find the right bra, no matter how many times a week I go in. The sales girls know their stuff and will make sure you know what size you are in what brand (they keep it on record!). It’s seriously a life changer to find a place like this and I wish more American women had the opportunity.
when I was in the States I went to VS and I had a woman try and tell me the bra she was fitting me was fine. It was a D cup. I laughed and thought she was having a joke, but this lady was full on trying to sell me this bra!! I was like I’M A G CUP LADY!!! I was gob smacked. I still am every time I think about it and that was 4 years ago.
There is NO WAY they are trained properly to fit bras. I’m from NZ and was sooooo excited when I walked in to the VS shop, after seeing the shows on TV, and I just lost complete faith in them that day. An absolute shocker!
I have never in my life been able to wear a VS bra, but just like so many others I would love to be able to. Just because they are pretty colors, nice fabrics, padded underwires, and easily available. I think the fact that they are so available is part of what makes them so popular. There is not a mall in America (at least that I’ve been in) that does not have a VS.
My first, and only VS fitting, was several years ago. They tried to fit me into a 34DD. I was eventually self sized into a 30F. The woman in the store told me that there was nothing wrong with the fit. When I asked for a smaller bandsize she told me that I should go to the adult store in our city to find something that would fit “a woman like me.” Because I have implants she referred me to a pornographic store. Needless to say I have not been back to VS in a long while. I’ve considered going for a sizing just to see what they would put me at now. I live in southern Alabama where our only options are VS and a small Dillards.
Someone asks why women in the US do not revolt against VS. It’s because it’s the only obvious option we have. We are flooded with their advertisements and catalogs, coupon advertisements with $10 off or a free panty. Most women in the US just do not have the knowledge about bra fitting to see how wrong things really are. That’s why there are so many bloggers out there that are trying to share the knowledge.
Victoria’s Secret is good for exposing women around the country to lingerie. Tons of women live in a area of the United States where there either isn’t a lingerie boutique or there isn’t a lingerie boutique they feel comfortable visiting, and, for many, Victoria’s Secret is their first introduction to the beautiful world of intimates. I bought some of my first bras as young woman from Victoria’s Secret, and though I haven’t shopped there in years, I don’t know if I’d have become as passionate about lingerie without their influence.
The prevalence of VS in the US is absolutely ridiculous. I have a friend who has been attempting to squeeze herself into a 34DD and it got so painful to see that I convinced her to go with me to get fitted. When she the fitter suggested she should wear a 32GG, she replied “well…Victoria’s Secret doesn’t make that size so…I don’t think so.”
While I will shop there for underwear because as was previously pointed out, they do make nice ones, it makes me sick how dependent on one store American women have become.
If only only only VS would carry their hundred way bra in my size. I don’t want to go into all my bad experiences with them.
I just wanted to say if you get any requests for Portland OR, send them to Just Like a Woman. Getting properly fitted was life changing. 🙂
Thanks for the tip! And glad you found your perfect fit in the end too 🙂 x
I was measured in VS last summer. The woman didn’t even take out a measuring tape. She looked at me, clothes on, and told me i was a 36DD. I’m a 32F.
*screams in to pillow*
Sucks to see this. I’m a VS associate and I hate knowing that tons of women around the country aren’t even using their tape measures to do a fitting. The thing with our measurement system is that it varies dramatically from department stores. You may be a 32DD at VS and a 36C at a department store or boutique. It is skewed and confusing but the only way to truly know is to try on a bra from our bra wardrobing center. If it fits you, supports you, and is comfortable, then that’s all that matters to me. I also keep budget in mind. I’m not going to throw you our most expensive bra and drag you up to the register. I almost always ask if there’s a price point that she would like to maintain. If that’s the case I will round up a few bras within her budget and remind her that they will last years if she takes care of them correctly.
Also, we don’t make commission at VS which people are surprised to know.
Unfortunately it depends on the store you are at. I don’t get paid what I do (not well) to look at my watch and make horrendously inaccurate bra fittings. I really care about the women I work with and it is my personal responsibility to make them feel sexy (or comfortable) in their own way. I know you probably didn’t want an associate’s feedback on this post but I figured I could pour some insight from the opposite side of the cash register. (Unfortunately I have nothing to do with marketing or it would look at lot better than it does).
Thanks for commenting – it’s actually really nice to hear from a VS associate who cares after all the horror stories I’ve heard. You must be a credit to them.
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VS used to be so much cooler before all the angels, fashion shows and Pink stuff. The lingerie was classy and there was more variety. I had decent customer service. One day I expanded out of their size range (I am about a 44DD) and got directed to Playtex and Lane Bryant The only thing I can buy there now is makeup and perfume. Oh well.
For a store that was started to cater to men buying lingerie for women, why does every guy in there look so lost?
Thanks for letting me rant.
I will continue buying my pantries from vs but thanks for this. I’m not hating on tall skinny model types, but can we see at least a few average sized chicks? Or plus? Or short?
I think the main problem with VS is the quality, not even considering the huge issue with sizing. A lot of women are walking around in bras that are not even close to the right size but keep going back because they don’t know what their real size is. My advice is to get a real bra fitting a good local bra boutique and then shop for quality bras in your real size.
Totally. It’s worth investing in a good quality bra in the right size – as well as supporting you properly and looking fabulous under clothes, they last so much longer. My E cup bras ALWAYS use to rip with the strain of my G cup boobs, even if I handwashed them. Drove me crazy.
Well this may seem silly because the article is not exactly about this but I was wondering if they do not have an accurate measuring system, then what is a good way? I have been measured by two different ladies and they both gave me close but different answers, seemingly just to sell me any bra because the first time i went in they asked what size I was wearing and it was 36c, she told me I was close but I am a cup size larger and helped me pick a 36d that fit nicely(for the time being) after a couple days the bra started feeling a little off just like the other so i went to get fitted again and it was another woman at another store, she asked what size, i told her i was wearing a 36d and she measured me and said i would need a 36c, this was only 4 or 5 days apart, no period bloating or anything else could have caused it so I tried looking up online for myself how to measure and its all over the map and it lead me to this article so if anyone has any advice on where I can find ACCURATE instructions to measure it would be a great help
Arg so frustrating for you! Well, the first thing is that you can be measured different sizes in different bras. This is because (annoyingly) sizes are not consistent (I know, I know. Arg!). However, the numbers and letters on your label may change but the fit should be perfect – and this certainly doesn’t sound like the case here – a good bra well cared for should last at least six months, not four days!
I can try and help you find a way to something better. If you reply to this post with your measurements + how it fits (e.g do the straps dig in, how does the wire sit, how firm is the band, how does it feel at the end of the day, how does it feel after you’ve run up some stairs) I can try and help you solve it. If this is too public, you can also reach me on http://www.facebook.com/busts4justice – you can send a private message there if you’d rather take this offline.
Hopefully we can help!
Love from B4J x
In the last two years I have done Skype Bra Fittings in 26 American States and most of those fittings include a conversation about Victoria’s Secret. Because my clients are all D-K cups their experiences at VS are usually being either a) forced into the wrong size or b) being made to feel ‘big’ or awkward because VS bras don’t fit them.
Their products don’t bother me terribly because I don’t expect every brand to make lingerie that will suit me. But there in lies my frustration, they could so easily explain that their bras aren’t designed to fit every woman (however, honesty doesn’t always make you millions of dollars!). With such an enormous audience and public trust (albeit a little misguided) VS has the opportunity to bring great bra fit knowledge to millions of women. Bra happiness starts with great fit, without it you are simply wearing a pretty torture device. If you’re bypassing the foundation of making women feel great in their bras (i.e. fit!) what does that say about your commitment to women?
FYI B4J: Info on our Skype Fittings for American ladies http://www.butterflycollection.ca/skype-bra-fittings/
I’m only 13 and I feel like I’m the only person in the US that knows how a bra is SUPPOSED to fit, and my proper size, which is 28D. My parents won’t listen to me what so ever, because they think a D cup is HUGE and FAKE, and my mom says she’s 34B, and she’s petite(I hope I spelled that right lol), and super skinny! She doesn’t get how I could be “bigger” than her, and I tried to tell her that a 28D is smaller than a 34B, but she’s more stubborn than a gator… I’ve even tried showing her all the proof I can get (Simply proven wrong- Fuller Figure Fuller Bust, and a few more things from G’s site). Ok that’s it for my rant (catches breath).
One more thing… I need to find a good bra in size 28D, that’s less than $30 and good if you don’t carry alot of your boob meat on the top of your breasts, I have more fat on te sides and bottom of my breasts lol…. anyways thanks :0)
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lol i am a 34 minus a according to their calculator…im actually like28 e or f…
I actually happen to Like Victoria Secret, It may be because I don’t have enormous boobs and am skinny. There bras are super pretty and feel comfy, They have really cute panties, and Pjs and some other things. I like there lipstick (: I don’t like the pictures though, because they enhance the model’s boobs so much sometimes,I have no idea what the bra or dress really looks like.When ordering online, it’s really just a wild guess whether a dress will look good or not, there excessive fake cleavage throws you off. Products are good though (: One Happy Customer.
After reading this post, I instantly knew that you are awesome. 🙂
Thanks for posting!
I hate Victoria Secret’s fake marketing, too. They’ll never get my money. Never. Their marketing repels me.
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I bought a few at 36dd for gf.
Personally I think fredericks of Hollywood is a good deal they are pretty and if you wait you can get them for $22 each which is awesome! Never buy their lingerie if your bust is larger than 36c. It’s a waste of money
When on holiday in US I found it impossible to find a bra in my size 36HH and couldn’t believe how rude and unknowledgable the fitters where telling me you won’t get a bra that big or no your a D and trying to make me try on a bra that wouldn’t even have worked as earmuffs they need to sort out the sizing before woman are forced to wear small sizes for convenience but cause themselves serious back trouble they need bravisimo
10 years behind???!!! Please help us. I want to be the last poor, American college student who can’t pick up a 28F at the nearest department store. I’m sick of wearing 32″ bands…
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I am so with you on this one! Actually I am signing every word you wrote. I can’t tell you how much I hate VS; boring and ugly.
I am cup A and I have such a problem finding a good fitting bras. The most comfortable one is Natori. Did you check this web site TrueandCo? Love your web site!